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AlsRobotics
Geek!
United Kingdom
347 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 19:07:01
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Hi all,
I been thinking for a while now about making a forever expandable base that utilises a PC for the main processing with MCUs for motor control and sensing etc. I have recently been talking to James about this also and we are going to put something together, each of us building our own robot. Now, we would like to open this up to the group also, so if anyone is interested post here now.
Basic idea is to have a 2 or 4 wheel rover, that uses say either an ITX board or laptop for the main processing, motor controls from H Bridges driven by PICs. Everyone can then design modules that best fit their needs and customise as needed while retaining the common base platform, as James has put it, a Linux for robots, maybe that's Robux?
For simplicity I have chosen to use windows (probably 2000 server) as a OS base and then use VB. to write the code. I know that there will be mixed view on using an MS platform but it's simple and everyone knows it. But maybe some of you might like to code a linux version in parallel?
Food for thought at the moment, comments welcome.
Regards.
Al..
http://www.alsrobotics.co.uk |
Edited by - AlsRobotics on 19 Feb 2005 11:44:54
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Agog
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 19:32:04
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This is something I've had on the drawing board for a while, so i'm up for it. What's the reasoning behind 2k server as opposed to pro?
Gwynne
DIPEx a database of people's experience of illness
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Bob
Serious Geek!
United Kingdom
1217 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 19:51:00
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Sounds interesting.
Bob |
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AlsRobotics
Geek!
United Kingdom
347 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 20:23:02
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Hi Gwynne / Bob,
No reason really, just I have it in my draw and like it. I also have pro, not that it makes a great deal of difference.
OK guys, what goals do we all have?
I would like to introduce a nervous system to the design whereby PICs can quickly process sensor signals and respond without the need of the main PC, but once the PC has given thought to a way around what it has encountered it can then issue new commands. like an animal really.
Regards.
Al...
http://www.alsrobotics.co.uk |
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suzo
Serious Geek!
Australia
1360 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 02:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by AlsRobotics
I been thinking for a while now about making a for every expandable base that utilises a PC for the main processing with MCUs for motor control and sensing etc.
There seems to be a word missing here, sorry for being a bit slow on the uptake, but I don't understand exactally what you have in mind.
quote:
as James has put it, a Linux for robots, maybe that's Robux?
For simplicity I have chosen to use windows (probably 2000 server) as a OS base and then use VB. to write the code.
Hmm, use Windows to create a "linux for robots" thats a bit ironic.
quote:
I know that there will be mixed view on using an MS platform but it's simple and everyone knows it. But maybe some of you might like to code a linux version in parallel?
Personally, I don't know MS very, it seems to be the bane of my business. But don't worry about that, I am always interested in the idea of a project though I don't understand what this one is going to try and achieve, so I don't kow what part I may have in it from this side of the globe.
sue
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Bob
Serious Geek!
United Kingdom
1217 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 07:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by AlsRobotics
Hi Gwynne / Bob,
<snip>
OK guys, what goals do we all have?
<snip>
Regards.
Al...
http://www.alsrobotics.co.uk
Hi Al
I think my interest is in building a robot that can explore an unknown environment, keep itself out of trouble and report its findings back to base. I am also interested in multi unit robots where the individual robots can communicate with each other to maximase their information gathering/processing power.
I also like the idea of a robot arm or some form of manipulator.
I suppose planetary explorers are the best models of what I want to achieve.
Bob
Post script
...and getting one in the middle of the maze would be great!
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Edited by - Bob on 17 Dec 2004 07:05:42 |
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GP
Geek!
242 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 09:05:47
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I quite often have very similar thoughts here, too.
I think something like this ought to come standard with a wireless link, and basic webserver installed - and a software component that could be installed elsewhere in a LAN that doubles up as remote control as well as monitoring - I'm no necessarily meaning remote presence here - but that could be configured as a higher level option.
ITX, not laptop. |
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Agog
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 11:03:15
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Hi Al, no problem, 2K pro is a slightly smaller install and I've been going down the compact flash/microdrive route for mass storage. Picked up a 40x (6.5mb/sec) 1gig compact flash card from the computer market for £65 a couple of weeks ago and already have a 2.2gig microdrive. I figure they'll be far more resilient to shocks and they have massively reduced power requirements cmpared to 2.5in and 3.5in drives. The only problem I've come across with them so far is that they seem to require a FAT file system to boot from (either FAT16 or FAT32), they don't seem to boot if you format them as NTFS.
I've been leaning towards Bob's interest - it's the Mars rovers that have got me inspired.
Gwynne
DIPEx a database of people's experience of illness
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Agog
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 12:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
I think something like this ought to come standard with a wireless link, and basic webserver installed - and a software component that could be installed elsewhere in a LAN that doubles up as remote control as well as monitoring - I'm no necessarily meaning remote presence here - but that could be configured as a higher level option.
WiFi dongle or PCI card is the solution I've gone for, the robot then just becomes another network device. It's cheap and all the hard work (coding wise) is already done for you. You've also then got a wide choice of access options - Terminal services to take complete control from a remote machine, web applications and/or web services running under IIS which comes as standard with Win2k, or custom written socket applications. The web application route has a lot going for it as the only thing you'd need on the remote machine is a browser - no need to write client apps, choice of languages to develop in etc.
<soapbox>
Personally, I'm likely to write stuff using the .Net framework. There's a much higher degree of interoperability between libraries(dlls) written in different languages to the point where it's language agnostic. There's no real distinction between an application that's compiled as a windows application and one that's compiled as an ASP.Net web application, other than the latter runs under IIS's application space. Access to OS features is seamless. Best aspect of all is how little code you have to write to do something usefull.
After reading back the above, I thought I aught to stick it in a soapbox tag 'cos it does look as if I'm proselytising. I probably am  I've been more than pleasantly surprised by .Net and the more stuff I write with it, the more I like it.
<soapbox>
quote:
ITX, not laptop.
Yep, I'm inclined to agree with that for three reasons, weight, power consumption and hardware expandability - ITXs have a PCI slot, I've got a serial card for mine with an extra 4 RS232 ports on it.
Gwynne
DIPEx a database of people's experience of illness
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JamesC
Geek!
United Kingdom
394 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 18:24:06
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A Quick Google for 'Robot Operating system' cam up with this site http://www.orocos.org/.
I haven't looked into it very deeply but it may be usefull as a start for our project.
Regards
James |
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GP
Geek!
242 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 19:58:17
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something like this needs to be pitched and spun very carefully to hit it's target.
defining the target in this case is a must - where on the entertainment <> practical use <> interest <> research scales would you aim it ?
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JamesC
Geek!
United Kingdom
394 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 21:37:57
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Ok, as promised here are my initial thoughts. Pleas feel free to chip in, hack it about or whatever.
Housekeeping
I think we want to build a core that looks after itself. Looking at animals for inspiration survival is the most important instinct.
- Monitor Batteries
- Auto recharge (docking)
- Recharge (solar)
- Monitor internal temps and humidity
Movement
I think our basic premise of a 2/4 wheeled platform will be a sound basis. It may be worth looking at a motion control module such that we say move forward 20cm and the system gets on with it. We really want to be able to use the same system with different motion systems e.g. wheels 2/4, tracks or even legs. The downside of this is it precludes using things like whegs, which have no positional accuracy as they work by slipping & spinning until they find a purchase.
Perhaps we need to start with dead reckoning and combine it with absolute positioning to correct errors.
Sensors
I feel that we need to allow for a multitude of sensors operating at different levels (subsumption architecture?). It is important that the control software is configured to allow many and varied sensors. For true autonoumous operation we need huge amounts of input about the environment, we’ve all had robots stuck under a chair or caught on the leg of a table. A robot large enough to carry the processing power we are talking about (and associated batteries) could do some serious damage if it hits something/someone.
- Emergency stop button
- Bump Sensors (last resort)
- Close range sensors (to allow human interaction/fine navigation, lining up on doors etc)
- Mid range (normal navigation)
- Long range (mapping)
- PIR to detect human/animal presence (would probably require stopping occasionally to work properly)
- Light
- Colour (find the red wall etc.)
- Vision there is the CMU cam for those with deep pockets or the AVR cam which is open source (I can’t find the page at the moment)
Navigation
- Wheel encoders
- Compass
- GPS
- Lights (possibly IR) for night navigation
Control
My vision is for an autonomous robot that can be commanded remotely (like Bobs rover idea). Thus, all low level navigation is autonomous and hopefully we could get to the stage where we could set a location and the robot find it’s way to it (this has always been my long term goal in robotics). We could then have remote control over say a gripper.
- Onboard menu system
- Radio
- Infrared
- Wireless network
- Speech (gimmicky)
Output
We want output from the robot so that we can interact with it, and to make it more engaging. It’s also usefull to warn of it’s presence. I’ve always liked the serving druids on Short Circuit “Pardon me, coming through”.
- Go faster blue LED’s
- Mood output e.g. indication by changing output of robot status
- Sound
- Speech
Actually I think I addressed this wrong, it should be Dear Santa...
Regards
James |
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Dan Arnell
New Member
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 15:24:28
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any updates?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT |
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AlsRobotics
Geek!
United Kingdom
347 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 19:01:54
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Hi Dan and all,
Sorry for the delay, I have been etching out the design brief for the project (in the what little spare time I have). I will post a link to this when done on RB.
GP, do we ever need a true reason to go mess around in our workshops on a Sunday afternoon? Sorry to say I don't have a set goal that I want to achieve but just the challenge of programming for an ever expandable system (modular). It will be nice to get one of the ITX boards I have into a robot too, I've be meaning to do that for some time.
Regards.
Al..
http://www.alsrobotics.co.uk |
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GP
Geek!
242 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 21:57:08
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Al - hell no, I do it all the time !
but if there's one thing I've learnt from stuff like this, a little requirements gathering at the least is always a good idea - even if it's only a one off project for no real reason other than to have fun and learn.
it was the intended modularity / future expandability that I was getting at really, there are an awful lot of detours and dead ends down that road - how far ahead you plan your route is usually directly proportional to the amount of U-turns taken by the time you're done.
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suzo
Serious Geek!
Australia
1360 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 01:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by suzo
[quote]Originally posted by AlsRobotics
about making a ????? for every expandable
Sorry, I am still unclear as to what this project really is. There seemed to be a missing phrase ir word in your original statement. Apparently others don't need this spelled out, but I have not got figgure out what you want to achieve.
At first I thought you were talking an operating system, because you described it as "a Linux for robotics" but then you said you were planning to use windows 2000 server. Also if it was an OS then the paticular robots that people whant to build would be irrelevant.
Your description of the aspects of the project suggest it is intended to be an application that runs on a variety of similar hardware robots, using an Windows 2000 server as an OS?
Sorry to want things spelled out, it doesn't seem like anyone else is having this problem.
sue
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Robux Project, the PC robot 
